Bad Starter is actually a bad Shorai

Great that you found an honest and knowledgeable mechanic. Always look for the cheap/easy before doing the deeper dive.

Hmm. We have a pretty extensive starter issue thread. Plus a pretty extensive battery thread.

I have a Shorai. I can say the following:
- My starter was cycling slow before I swapped stock battery
- If I "warm" the Shorai up properly - especially when cold - it starts at least as good as before the swap. Subsequent warm starts the rest of the ride day fires right up.

gatdammit said:

Hmm. We have a pretty extensive starter issue thread. Plus a pretty extensive battery thread.

I have a Shorai. I can say the following:
- My starter was cycling slow before I swapped stock battery
- If I "warm" the Shorai up properly - especially when cold - it starts at least as good as before the swap. Subsequent warm starts the rest of the ride day fires right up.

Click to expand...

and now a thread which connects both

Kind of the tell-tale sign of a bad starter is that it doesn't start well when warm/hot, but starts fine when cold. If it's a weak battery it would struggle more consistently.

In years past have read about quite a few bad Shorai batteries. This within the first few years after introduction to the market. But lately, not many reports of Shorai problems.
As always, YMMV. Don't know if Shorai fixed problem ... or what? Or was it consumer education?

I have a Shorai in my KTM Duke 690 ... and when COLD you have to warm up the Shorai, which to many is counterintuitive. But it works. KTM always starts well, but cold weather it may balk on first try. Leave key on (with head light) for 20 to 30 seconds ... and now instant start. All good so far.

I bought another Shorai for the Ducati, but have not yet installed it. The current Yuasa is fairly "young", working well so far. So instead, it will probably replace my aging DEKA AGM battery in my Suzuki DR650 at some point. New Shorai on work bench for now.

With Lifepo batts you have to watch voltage (or so I've heard). Running accessories like heated gear can run down the LifePo. Not good! if you run it too low it can ruin it.
Many buy a Lifepo batt that is under rated for their bike. Experts recommend going UP a size if any question.

I plan on buying the new little Battery Tender Lithium specific charger to carry on longer rides.

I run heated gear a lot, so need to be able to re-charge batt at days end if required.

OP,
On the extra starter ... can't you return it for Cash or Credit?

Looks like the hot start issue was your trigger. Mine cranks fine when warm.

Hyp noob, the only time anything should be draining the battery is before start or at idle speeds. When moving, everything should be powered by the alternator. Vehicle batteries are a secondary per source with the alternator being primary.

dragoontwo said:

Hyp noob, the only time anything should be draining the battery is before start or at idle speeds. When moving, everything should be powered by the alternator. Vehicle batteries are a secondary per source with the alternator being primary.

Click to expand...

Yes, once the engine is revving 2000 RPM or better, you have full alternator output.
Actual output will depend on which bike and it's alternator output and also depends how much one is loading the system with accessories like heated gear,
GPS, computers and more. It's a balance: Alternator output vs. load.

Luckily, the Hyperstrada puts out (IIRC) about 400 Watts, so plenty for heated gear, grips and electronics. Excellent!

And BTW, lots of things can drain the battery while the bike sits. Look up parasitic drain. A BIG topic on Lifepo battery forums. I would bet our Hyperstrada has at least some parasitic drain. It's got A LOT of computers, anti theft, ABS, F.I. and much more.

Clock, Alarm, key chip starting system. All can draw small amount of current all the time.

After reading a lot more on the Lifepo batt forums I have now decided against running my NEW Shorai in my Suzuki DR650. WHY?

It's total Alternator output is just 200W. My 90W "Hot Wired" electric jacket (Cycle Gear) will run my battery flat in about 5 hours of steady use. Add heated gloves, things get worse. I run a low draw HID headlight which saves 20W, but still, no cigar on that bike. Very low Alternator output has to be managed carefully.

No problem with a fresh AGM battery, just bump start the bike and in 20 minutes riding without accessories on and battery is back to 100%.

A Lifepo, it is said, if run down significantly, can be permanently damaged and may NOT recover. So, $150 down the drain.

With a bike like the Hyperstrada ... and most modern bikes, the charging systems are good and typically put out 350 to 450 Watts. BMW's put out over 700 Watts.

The really good news about Lifepo's that I've read is that, just sitting around,
they discharge LESS than normal lead acid batts. But don't forget parasitic drain. So ... even a Lifepo batt needs to be on a charger when stored in bike.

More good news regards Lifepo is how quickly they recharge to 100% if they do go down a bit. But they say you don't want to let them get below 12V ... ever!

To me, this sucks. We all make mistakes ... any number of reason why a batt can be run down ... from leaving key on, to a minor short, to faulty alarm (very common) and lots more. I'll leave it in my KTM Duke 690 for now, and may use it in my Ducati once the current standard Yuasa fades away.

But when at it's lowest point a Lifepo can fully charge in just 15 minutes.

I know about parasitic drain, but was addressing your comment about heated gear ruining the battery. My shorai sits for months in my Hyperstrada and fires right up when I'm ready to go. I bought my only Shorai back in May of 2011. It has never seen a charger, and despite sitting for 3-5 months a year connected to the bike(Hypermotard then Strada) it is still going strong.

Secondly are you running any sort of voltage meter on your DR? Have you changed out your regulator rectifier to the Mosfet type?

dragoontwo said:

I know about parasitic drain, but was addressing your comment about heated gear ruining the battery. My shorai sits for months in my Hyperstrada and fires right up when I'm ready to go. I bought my only Shorai back in May of 2011. It has never seen a charger, and despite sitting for 3-5 months a year connected to the bike(Hypermotard then Strada) it is still going strong.

Secondly are you running any sort of voltage meter on your DR? Have you changed out your regulator rectifier to the Mosfet type?

Click to expand...

That's good news that your Shorai is doing so well. Where my concern lies is on multi-day trips, far away from home, where heated gear is used all day, everyday. On some bikes seems batt could be run down and may not fully recover. This is why I always try to shut off ALL accessories about 20 min. from my days end destination. Gives system time to recharge everything.

The Hyperstrada system is so strong, it can easily keep up even when powering many items. So no discharge on the batt to speak of ... and if it was out of balance, once accessories are off, the charging system would quickly recover.

I'm pretty familiar with my DR650, owned it since '06 and 60K miles. The DR650 (and other) forums mention Mosfet type rectifiers ... no help for the DR650 apparently. (I know they are a major help on some bikes)

Seems stock Reg/Rectifier does a good job on the DR650.

What many DR guys do is install an aftermarket Stator which puts out MORE watts. It boosts it from a paltry 200W up to 250W. So a modest gain. You can also re-wire the Stator for more output but idle output goes down. Trade offs.

It is what it is on the DR650.

Hyp Noob said:

That's good news that your Shorai is doing so well. Where my concern lies is on multi-day trips, far away from home, where heated gear is used all day, everyday. On some bikes seems batt could be run down and may not fully recover. This is why I always try to shut off ALL accessories about 20 min. from my days end destination. Gives system time to recharge everything.

The Hyperstrada system is so strong, it can easily keep up even when powering many items. So no discharge on the batt to speak of ... and if it was out of balance, once accessories are off, the charging system would quickly recover.

I'm pretty familiar with my DR650, owned it since '06 and 60K miles. The DR650 (and other) forums mention Mosfet type rectifiers ... no help for the DR650 apparently. (I know they are a major help on some bikes)

Seems stock Reg/Rectifier does a good job on the DR650.

What many DR guys do is install an aftermarket Stator which puts out MORE watts. It boosts it from a paltry 200W up to 250W. So a modest gain. You can also re-wire the Stator for more output but idle output goes down. Trade offs.

It is what it is on the DR650.

Click to expand...

While I don't have a DR, I do have a 1st gen KLR650. My stator should be 196 watts. Switching to the mosfet regulator did make a difference. My volt meter claims that I'm even charging at idle now. While running, it edges towards overcharging.

I have Shorais in three out of five bikes and also our '13 MX-5 Miata. I rotate a small charger among them, hung from the garage door motor, just for peace of mind. And I have a Ballistic 4 cell in the Velo MAC to fit in its tiny battery case. If Shorai made one small enough I would use that.

The one in the Miata went flat due to the Ipod adapter I had left in the 12V socket. Since I figured that out, no problem.

I did lose one on my '68 Velocette, it died from internal breakage due to the vibration produced by this old thumper. I'm halfway through a full disassembly and restoration, we will see if it gets any smoother.

PS that bike has done 43K on the original taper roller bearing crankshaft, which is still tight and measured out true to a tenth of a thou. Compare that to a contemporary Triumph twin... they needed a rebuild every 10 - 15K.