No better with Rapid Bike EVO

justdan · May 16, 2020

I'm beginning to wish i didn't buy this bike. It is a 2013 Hyperstrada 821. Looks nice but that's about it, unfortunately.

It's a classic case of the on-off-on-off throttle surging that you get, for me, anywhere below about 70mph when attempting to maintain a constant speed.
Especially annoying in a 40mph or 30mph zones. It's actually very tiring and more of a workout riding it any great distance which is a shame as i thought it would be nice for a bit of touring.

My main bike is a Honda CB500X and it is great. It just works and is very smooth and tbh so is my TW200 project bike. Obviously they don't have the powerplant of the Hyperstrada and they are very different but it is painful going from something that works to something that doesn't.

So in a last ditch effort before i wheel it into a ditch i bought a Rapid Bike EVO based on the anecdotal reviews of random people on forum posts. A 5 hour wiring harness install later and it fired first time.

Took it out for a ride around the local loop and it's worse. I think it is adding more fuel but that has resulted in the surging just getting more pronounced. Now i've only done ~60 miles on it so maybe i'm jumping the gun but after such post as 'wow' 'amazing' 'it's a new bike' i was hoping for something.

Of course there are no documents for the EVO apart from the wiring harness install overview. Even registering on Dimsports site didn't offer up anything useful. Other forum posts suggest that a 200 mile bed in period is required but there is no docs to even act as a guide or verify this.

Does any body have any helpful words of advise or seen something similar before with an EVO?

In addition what i've done recently is to replace the coils with a set of RS4 Eldor coils. I said to myself i wouldn't ride it again until i got that done. I also replaced the o2 sensors with a pair of Polorais sensors from the States. This was after yet another forum post suggesting that this resulted in 'it's a new bike'. No, not really maybe 5% better, maybe, but so small it's not any sort of fix.

What i probably should have done is to try it stock without the o2 sensors plugged in and noted the behavior. Now of course i'm not sure of the negative effect of running the EVO without the o2 sensors. Maybe i'll try putting it back to stock and trying it out after i've got over the wiring harness install. That was brutal. Not a fun task.

Any help greatly appreciated.

---Dan

justdan · May 16, 2020

Looks like kuksul08's post on 'Adventures in Hypermotard tuning.." answer some of this. Looks like the default map in the EVO isn't the best and the auto tuner is a gimmick at best.... hmmm. Perhaps i need to try kuksul08's map and go from there.

Araitim · May 16, 2020

Contact Yamen over at rapidbike USA(if you are in the USA). Mail him and tell him your problem . He will point you in the right direction. He will even set up an appointment and go remotely into your laptop connected to your bike and fix any issues he sees. You will watch him do a bunch of things through your laptop. These bikes can be frustrating from time to time. Ducati has a known history of electrical gremlins. The bikes you are comparing it to are bikes that are not pushing the motor structure and technology. They are 'play it safe , longevity: bikes. The ducati is an angry hooligan bike. Talk to Yamen. Also, read, re read and re re read the adventures in hypermotard tuning post. Try that set up as well before you contact Yamen . If it's already out of each then night as well go all in. It is extremely likely the Kul tune resolves it all(I use a modified version of his tune and it's a freight train). Of that doesn't work email Yamen

bayotte · May 16, 2020

There is something wrong with your bike, something that a tune won't fix. My 2013 was smooth throughout the entire rev range, any speed.

gatdammit · May 17, 2020

Agree with Bayotte. And Yamen isn't that helpful if you didn't buy it from him. Have you done the obvious stuff for the Evo: Connected a laptop and updated firmware; Proper settings; Good cross-talk on the AFR charts? Do you have a pipe and improved air filter/high-flow kit? The tuner really shines with these basic mods.

If using Adaptive Mode, which is good, there was a break-in period where it learned your riding habbits, kinda like a modern car ECU. I still had immediate improvement. Recommend using Kuksol08's map in the thread noted above. It was much better than Adaptive.

Has you bike had all TSB's performed. There was a TPS update that solved some of the low speed throttle roughness for the 1st gen models.

I have a 2013 with RB Evo and it is as civil as can be at low speed/throttle.

Araitim · May 17, 2020

This seems to come up quite a bit. Surging between 4-6000rpm. There have been many recent post like this over on the FB pages. Some suggested it was throttle bodies and stepper motors resolved with by removing and cleaning them or replacing them . Others said it was communication between the throttle and the throttle bodies themselves(like gatdammit said, there was a TSB on the early bikes and their throttle where they replaced them with updated one). Others suggested that it was the intake boot between the throttle bodies and the motor where the high ethonol gas in other countries cause the inner rubber to disform and delaminate from the plastic structure. Some suggested checking the chain for tight links and/or excessively worn sprockets and/or too loose or too tight chain(I had a similar issue. Replacing my chain smoothed thing out but didn't fully resolve the issue). I ended up taking the gas tank and everything off again and putting it back together and all was good. Others have suggested it be the gas line between the tank and the motor. It fits in a chanel moulded in the tank. Outside of that chanel can pinch the tube. Noone has come back with what they found to be the problem.

Gatdammit, didn't you have an issue with a broken wire where the wire loom transfer from the frame to the triple tree, or was that someone else? Something about sputtering and cutting off was the symptom. Numerous trips to the dealer and they couldn't find it. Digging in at home was how it was found and resolved if I'm not mistaken.

appliance821 · May 17, 2020

I had a cb500f and it was a wonderful machine, so I hear where you're coming from. It was jarring coming from the Honda to the Duc. This bike requires decisive precise inputs, but when you get the rhythm it is a wonderful machine in its own right. Not better or worse than the Honda (except in general build quality, but no-one beats the Japanese), just different.

I have found over the years that it always has surprises to offer as you get to be a better rider, and I love touring on it. I set both my sport and touring mode throttle level to sport as I find this a nice natural connection. My suggestion - meet the bike halfway instead of trying to make what it isn't - give it time and it will become second nature (apart from an occasional clutch grab LOL). I think it's worth it.

gatdammit · May 17, 2020

I had a short to an aux tap in the fwd fuse box. Believe it was #4 slot. This was first blowing the #4 fuse and killed the running engine and ignition circuit. Mechanic said he found a bad relay under the battery but that wasn't the cause. I just cleaned up that tap and good to go.

I also pinched the main fuel line when I installed my RB Evo. Basically felt like limp mode, cutting power above certain throttle value. This could differ depending on how pinched the line is.

I just rode a 2017 SuperSport. Complete dog compared to my HS. Definitely slower, though it had not been treated well for its 9600 KM life. Pipe, Air filter mod, Tuner and 14T sprocket do wonders for this motor.

kuksul08 · May 17, 2020

You will never get it to run as smooth as your CB500X. That's a docile beginner bike with cable actuated throttle and 10.7:1 compression, 50hp, and a heavy flywheel. The Hyper is an insane free-revving thing with electronic throttle and 12.8:1 compression and 110hp. Also, one's a Honda and one's a Ducati, very different priorities and standards between these brands...

I wrote off the auto-tune feature of Rapidbike pretty quick. The adaptive map it came up with was completely wrong when compared to a proper log collected using wideband O2 sensors. I recommend turning it off and either trying the one I posted, or having your bike tuned locally.

The areas you're complaining about are really just the cracked throttle position. To maintain speed around town, the throttle bodies are only open like 3-4%. You have to adjust the RB map to start adjusting at 2% instead of 5%. This means you also need to make sure the limits (closed throttle voltage and wide open throttle voltage) are calibrated right. This is pretty standard with any tuner module because every bike is slightly different. More important is the lower limit, you can leave the upper limit since the difference between 90% and 100% is not as important.

The reason I suggest simply unplugging O2's as a test is that the bike will default to an open-loop map, which generally is richer and smoother than the correction map that populates while riding the bike for emissions standards. If it feels much better, you'll know it's related to that. My eyes were opened to this when I would take my bike to the dealer and they would reset my adaptation values. The first couple miles after leaving, the bike felt incredible. Then, it would slowly get worse and worse, more and more stumbly and felt like misfiring.

By the way, I was in the same boat as you and even after getting it dialed to the best of my abilities, it still wasn't quite right. Something about the throttle calibration, or the free-revving nature of that engine. Sold it and found a bike that better suits my expectations. Hard to beat the excitement of the Hyper when hammering on it though!

Araitim · May 17, 2020

Not to hijack the thread but..

Kuksul08, what did you get to replace the hyper?

kuksul08 · May 17, 2020

Araitim said:
Not to hijack the thread but..

Kuksul08, what did you get to replace the hyper?

I went with the BMW S1000XR. Solid machine. Quite a bit heavier, tougher to muscle around the tight stuff, but better for riding I do.

appliance821 · May 17, 2020

kuksul08 said:
I went with the BMW S1000XR. Solid machine. Quite a bit heavier, tougher to muscle around the tight stuff, but better for riding I do.

Well a portion of your hyper lives on - installed the midpipe, flapper motor and cable yesterday. I'm officially the only person putting energy into getting a rusted out flapper working. LOL.

kuksul08 · May 17, 2020

appliance821 said:
Well a portion of your hyper lives on - installed the midpipe, flapper motor and cable yesterday. I'm officially the only person putting energy into getting a rusted out flapper working. LOL.

Haha, I think you're right! Glad it worked for you.

justdan · May 17, 2020

Hi all. Thanks for your responses. I'm in the UK not the US. I bought the EVO from a web supplier. My bike is stock. I didn't want to spend any more money until i had made some progress with the current issue and to be honest it's not the power that i have an issue with. My comparison to the CB was just to give the situation some context and for you to see where i was coming from in my thinking. I know these are very different bikes.

I bought the bike third hand from a Ducati dealer with ~9500 miles on it. I think they were a bit put out when i asked them to add the can-bus filter after i stumbled on the issue during the time i bought it and the time they put it through the workshop before delivery. I do not know if they really checked for any outstanding Ducati notices. When the lockdown ends and the different more local dealer is open i'll take the VIN in and see what they say.

I hadn't seen kuksul08's post before i made mine. I've read it through so i now understand a little bit better what is required. I guess the default map on the EVO does not match my bike as well as it has with others. My next step will now be to make a map from kuksul08's Excel tables and see what difference this brings to my bike, as well as looking at the current map data once i get the software on a laptop.

What i did think about while reading kuksul08's post was it would be good if you could get a wide-band o2 sensor with dual outputs to connect both a data logger and the EVO. After a bit of searching it seems that Zeitronix have a newer model unit the Zt-4. This has dual o2 sensor inputs. The unit comes with 2 wide-band sensors. It attaches to these sensors but can also attach to the EVO harness itself for either a pass through of the wide-band (0-5v) signal or emulate a narrow-band signal. It does this as well as the data logging.

So next step is make a map from kuksul08's tables as a baseline then perhaps look at the Zt-4 for data logging and adjust from there. As it can all operate together i can limit the amount of times i take the bike apart. I'll need to turn off the auto tune on the EVO to keep the data consistent.
It's turning into another project bike. I'll be happy if i can make some progress.

Another thing i need to check is the version of the throttle control. Ducati have a new 'E' version which supersedes the previous one. I'm not sure which version i have or whether it will make a difference. I did read that there was an issue with the 'C' version. I need to check.

justdan · May 17, 2020

On a separate point does any one know of the best tool to get the rear o2 sensor on and off? It's almost impossible to get it out even with a short 14mm spanner. I don't have any crows feet and have wondered if a low profile one would get in there. I was thinking of getting a deep 12 point 14mm ring spanner and cutting a chunk out with a cutting wheel to get over the cable. It's awkward to get too and from the looks of it you have to take a lot apart to get to it with a regular spanner. Just about managed last time with the shorty 14mm but it's a pig to get in or out.

appliance821 · May 17, 2020

I admire your determination, but maybe just not the bike for you. The ktm 890 duke looks super sweet, but could be a frying pan to fire situation. These are getting good reviews - easy at the low end, a bit of bite higher up: F 900 R

kuksul08 · May 17, 2020

If you're willing to put the time it, it will be loads better. Just make sure you have realistic expectations going in

For wideband logging you'd need to drill and weld O2 bungs to the header pipes ~8" from the port. Also tap into the wiring harness for RPM and TPS voltages, and run the thing on a relay so it starts and stops with the rest of the bike. I also purchased the 'black box' which allows logging to an SD card at the press of a button for later analysis.

I ended up using these skills to tune another motorcycle so it's not all lost, so you can look at it that way if you just want to learn a new skill. The next step in the tuning realm would be learning to code the ECU itself - no hardware changes needed, and ability to change ignition timing and throttle tables, among other things.

gatdammit · May 18, 2020

He got an S1000XR. About the only multi-purpose bike I would trade my HS for. I rode one a couple years ago and it is like a controllable ape on meth. A little pee came out when I clutchless shifted into 3rd at around 100 mph and the rear chirped, grabbed and lifted the front a couple inches while powering forward. Nutty motor and amazing ergo's. The owner was about 5'7", too.

gatdammit · May 18, 2020

14mm crowsfoot is what I used. You could channel out a deep socket. The alternatives all suck. O-2's are always coked in and take a lot of anti-torque to break free.

justdan · May 18, 2020

I didn't realize i'd need to weld new o2 ports onto the pipe. I guess the diameter is not the same for a wide-band sensor.

No better with Rapid Bike EVO

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