Hyp821 wont start if left outdoors overnight - Ducati workshop has given up

Bike simply will refuse to start if left outdoors overnight in sub 10 degrees temperature. No errors. Also no problem starting if stored indoors (even if not a heated space).

Video of all the sounds it makes failing to start:

This has only gotten worse over the past 2 years. It used to struggle a bit, then it took 30secs of trying, today you can keep trying for 5mins and it just wont start.

• I know its not the battery. Ive changed to a lithium one and there was no difference. Fully charging the battery even outside the bike also makes no difference
• Bike has done all regular services at authorized Ducati workshops
• Workshop has opened the starter clutch and found no issues of wear - they suspected it was broken because of the free spinning sound.
• Workshop has done a general look around and found no real issues.
• Workshop found horizontal cylinder has low compression and blame it on this.
• Blast the engine block with a heatgun for a few mins and it will start (fairly sure simply waiting wouldnt have started it, but wouldnt swear on it. Done this a few times now)

However it has no problem starting right away if stored indoors, so I'm not happy with that answer. I suspect it has to do with cold + humidity, but no clue what could be going wrong.

Please, any kind soul has some ideas what could be wrong? I dont have indoor storage and have been fighting with this every morning for the past 2 years.

Sounds bad! Of course, lithium batteries seem not to be at their best when cold but this amount of usage should warm it. You don't state the year of the bike but have you still got the original starter motor that was fitted early on? That can drop the voltage so much that the other electrics fail, though that is usually a problem when hot. A Denso starter, even secondhand, is a very worthwhile upgrade and there are details on file here. Hope you can get it fixed soon!

Right, let me add that info to the OP.

Bike is 2013 model, starter got changed to a 27040107A Denso 4 years ago

We'll have to think again. I suppose the sparkplugs are OK and the old Beru coils have been junked?

Sparkplugs were checked and fine. Coils were replaced with 38010145B 4 years ago, which seems are also beru ones?

Test the battery voltage at rest and starting?
As Nick mentions - Lithium's don't like the cold, but even with a new battery it is maybe not putting out enough power.
A friend had 2 new ones of a good make but had problems with both being under voltage.

I can't think of anything else temperature sensitive- other than a heavy viscosity oil, but as you say - The bike is dealer serviced, so that should be correct.

Battery was first changed when it first started having these issues few years ago. Then about a year ago changed to Lithium. There has been no change to this behavior with any of the battery swaps. Fully charging the battery indoors and putting it on the bike (so warm battery) also didnt help. Jump starter also just makes it spin faster.

Im far from a mechanic, or understanding how all this works, but at this point I feel fairly certain the battery is not the issue.

And yeah, oil was changed about a week ago by the shop that also inspected the starter clutch and concluded it looked fine.

Has anyone actually checked the fuel delivery, pressure/volume? I don't know how you'd do that but it would seem important. And the curse of Beru may still be active!

I'm probably going to make some suggestions that you may have already considered but i haven't seen any mention of them, so if this is redundant, i apologize.

The free spinning starter motor suggests an under-voltage problem to me.

There has been complaints of hard starting on other 821's for various reasons. One common solution is to replace the cables from the battery to the starter and also to ground. See this link.

Since you're from Norway, i'm curious if you're from a coastal area and exposed to salt air? I'm across the pond from you and in a coastal area in Canada and sea air is hard on metal bits. So therefore, i'm wondering if you may have starter solenoid and/or connection issues.

I'd like to know if the terminals on the solenoid get hot when you are trying to start the bike. You can access them by removing the seat. A close inspection beforehand may yield some clues. Signs of oxidation (white powdery residue) is one big indication of a problem. The solenoid itself has a set of internal contacts that can erode especially in low voltage situations. You may even hear sizzling sounds if bad enough while trying to crank the engine. Checking, cleaning the connection on the solenoid may help. Make sure you disconnect the battery ground first so as to prevent arcing. It may be worthwhile to clean all connections between battery and starter and ground. Once the connections are cleaned, some sort of anti corrosion aide can be put on the connections. This can be anything from Vaseline to di-electric grease. I' sure i'll get feedback on the previous recommendation but it comes from almost 50 years of experience (I'm 64 years old and have a background in motor vehicle repair and electronics).

If you or a friend have access to a voltmeter and can check connections for resistance, it may also show issues but it's not conclusive. Unless the connection is terrible, it may still show as having continuity but can be poor enough not to allow a high current to pass which is what is needed for turning the starter motor at it's maximum speed.

There is a company that offers kits for the cables (LINK). I have no affiliation with them, there are probably other companies that offer the same style of products because after all, the cables are not rocket science. They just need to be in good shape with good connections and be of a high enough capacity to allow proper current flow. Speaking of which, if any component in your starting systems is heating up, it's also a good indicator of a poor connection or failing. There are lots of youtube vids of starter terminals glowing red from a poor connection.

Here's a image of the starter solenoid location.


screws (2)
spring washers (3).
starter motor-solenoid starter cable (4)
solenoid starter-battery cable (5).




Hope this helps!

Thanks a ton for the breakdown and tips. I'm gonna go through and test these in the weekend. I did at least take a quick look at the solenoid connections though and they look good to me (attaching pics)

nickwst4 said:

Has anyone actually checked the fuel delivery, pressure/volume? I don't know how you'd do that but it would seem important. And the curse of Beru may still be active!

Click to expand...

Shop did tell me they checked that last time and it seemed good!

Here's a couple of other thoughts.

If the circuit that supplies power to the starter has good connections, then what about the part of the circuit between the starter button and the solenoid? Is it possible there is corrosion on the starter switch at the handlebar? If you have some WD-40 then give the switch a spray before you leave the bike overnight.

Another suggestion is to cover the bike and see if it makes any difference. It won't solve the problem but can make life easier for you in the short term until you can find the source of the issue.

When the bike does start, is it only after a few revolutions of the engine? Once the engine is warm, does the bike start easier or does it have to crank for a while?

When was the last time you changed the air filter?
When was the last time the valves were set?

I'm optimistic the issue is minor so don't lose hope!

Cheers

I have a Hyperstrada 821 2013.
Had the same problem 2 years ago.
Did a lot of work to find the problem.
The compression was 4 and 6 bar.
At last I checked the valve clearence, and all intakes were 0.00!!
The workshop adjusted the valve clearence and the bike now starts very easy.

The intake valve clearance was 0.20 at 30000 km service.
And by 45000 km it was 0.00!
Not really possible that the valve clearance would drop to 0.00 by wear.

My own opinion is that the stealrings in the heads has moved. Not properly installed during assembly.

StefanR said:

At last I checked the valve clearence, and all intakes were 0.00!!
The workshop adjusted the valve clearence and the bike now starts very easy.

Click to expand...

Interesting! By same problem you mean it still started easy when not cold? I guess valve clearance is not something I can easily check myself right?

The workshop last month told me they measured the vertical 15,51bar and the horizontal "only" 8,61bar, and attributed the issue to this. But it wasnt clear to me why compression would make it not start when cold and humid, but have no issues when stored indoors.

uncle brad said:

When was the last time you changed the air filter?
When was the last time the valves were set?

Click to expand...

Air filter was changed last month when it was at the shop that was trying to trouble shoot it. Valves Ill ask and see if they did or remember.

Covering the bike does make a bit of a difference (as in it fails to start fewer times), but it might also just be placebo. The cover is so damp on the inside in the morning that I dont think it's significant protection against humidity

Checked the starter switch and sprayed it, but no real difference.

Here's how the bike starts when stored in an indoors space overnight. Frankly I wouldnt be able to tell there is anything wrong with it. Starts right away

A new thing I got to record.

1 in 10 times it fails to start, it will also do a pop, followed by a thin streak of smoke coming out of the left front side, and smells bit burned. However it can still start after that, so no idea what this is.

But maybe it's a good clue for what is wrong?

Video here (really hard to see the smoke)

I'd suspect a faulty starter motor.

It doesn't seem like the battery to me. That thing is going forever.

I'm definitely no expert. But to me, it sounds like the fuel in the cylinders won't ignite, meaning A/F ratio may be wrong.

OK, yes, valve timing, clearances, compression, spark, etc. also might be wrong. But I'm assuming all those things have been ruled out already.

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Perhaps poor quality fuel. My bike was **** to start when I put 85 octane in it, and is still **** to start when hot / in hot weather. (*) (**)

Now, by "poor quality", I don't mean your local fuel station is scamming you, but it may be your bike just doesn't "like" that fuel when it's cold. Maybe it has too much ethanol or something, who knows.

I have the impression these bikes, like many modern "small" engines, are tuned to within an inch of not actually working due to emissions regs. And everyone agrees that Ducatis can be "sensitive" (i.e. tempermental). Maybe the cold pushes your particular bike over the edge.

Starting after warming the block tends to support this theory, assuming that is a real effect.

This could go to the low compression ratio, which is to say the combination of fuel + compression works only above a specific temperature.

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* Yes, I know, but I shouldn't need 95 RON for highway cruising, shut up. (<- 95 being the best in my area.)

** Yes, hard-to-start when HOT (i.e. ≥ 27°C) is the opposite of your problem, but the symptoms are similar.

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Apologies in advance if you already tried these:

• I couldn't see if you did this, but try cranking the throttle wide open when starting. Don't expect it to start right away, you may need to stay on the starter for much longer than your typical attempts.

• Same thing, but throttle 1/2 open.

• If it does start, and you release the throttle, it may just die and/or idle badly then die. You may need to keep the throttle open a few seconds, let her rev up.

• Run through the tank and try a different brand of fuel, preferably the highest octane you can readily get (if that isn't what you're already using now).

• Those fuel stations that do so will have switched over to "winter fuel" by now, which is a slightly different mix, and maybe your bike doesn't like it. You could have filled up with the new mix anytime in the last few months. No way to know without storing some "summer" fuel next season, and trying it after the weather turns cold.

• I don't know if these bikes have / your bike has an "altitude sensor" (ambient pressure sensor), but if they do / it does, check it's working. My old Honda ran a little rough until the altitude sensor broke and moved the bike to known-good defaults, then it ran great.

• Have they checked the intake temperature sensor? If it's bogus, the bike may not be creating the correct A/F ratio.

• Maybe try a Rapidbike Easy, or something else that lets you mess around with the A/F ratio. A potentiometer would probably do. It might not fix the problem but you may learn something.

• Call Rexxer, maybe they've seen this problem before and have a remap. ($$)

• Here's a real long shot: If you have the opportunity, unplug the air intake sensor. The bike will recognize the error, and MIGHT default to known-good / default settings that MIGHT let the bike start / run. If not, you MIGHT learn something. (Or not.)

The values you quoted for the compression test seem wonky. The higher value 15,51bar seems high and 8,61bar seems to be inordinately low in comparison. The big disparity between the two values have me concerned. I'm not sure if the test equipment that was used is wonky but i'm curious if another test would yield the same results. If you can confirm this with the guy that did the compression check, by asking if he repeated the test on any cylinders and obtained identical values. If so, then i'd be more inclined to believe the values. I spent over 30 years in the testing/measurement/instrumentation world and was taught the term 'repeatability'. Normally, we'd repeat a test to confirm values. If there is actually that huge a difference in compression, it's very possible that the low value in one cylinder is causing it to be hard to start. Conversely, if the low compression was causing it to start hard when cold, it should be even harder to start when hot.

But on the other hand, if you're getting a 'popping', and smoke..then that sounds like either bad ignition or valve timing. The fact that it only happens occasionally could be because the fuel fumes needed to collect and once it had the correct concentration it could backfire through the throttle bodies and emit a puff of smoke from the airbox intake port. The air filter could be damaged from the backfiring if bad enough. But the smoke is coming from the wrong side of the bike as the port is on the RH side. You may want to have a closer look and see if you can see any signs of soot and thereby be able to trace its origin. Who knows, there could be burnt wiring which can cause miscommunication for the ECU and cause ignition issues which can cause the hard starting.

Your statement about starting easier with a cover and starting normally when inside is a pretty strong indicator that it is moisture related. But if so, has there ever been any issues in the rain or after washing the bike? If not, it would seem that it's more of a issue with water vapour then water droplets. If sorta sounds like when there is prolonged exposure to moist environments, ingress to sensitive electronic may be happening. Has there been times when you have shut the bike off and came back to it a couple hours later and it would or would not start? Is there any window of time that you can say that will make it hard to start?

I agree with hyperdrv that you should try varying the throttle opening when starting to see if that helps.

This is one perplexing problem for sure.

Do you know if the bike still has the charcoal cannister? Not sure if the euro bikes have them originally. Sometimes wetting of the charcoal can cause saturation and poor venting of the cannister. Normally that's more of an issue with causing poor running. Especially if the bike tips over. Just wondering if you're encountering a too rich situation from the poor venting which will cause hard starting but should also cause poor idle.

In the past, i've heard of suggestions of using a spray bottle of water to try and locate electrical gremlins. It may be worthwhile to spray any exposed connectors to try and simulate the issue. Maybe spraying while the engine is running to see if you can cause a stumble. I used to have a Honda Accord that would not run properly in the rain. If i sprayed WD-40 around the ignition components, it would be fine. Not suggesting you coat the bike in WD-40 but some localized spraying of electrical components could give a temporary cure and lead you to where the faulty component is. I'd suggest spraying the coils lightly and allowing it a few seconds to penetrate and dissipate any vapors. Don't spray a running or hot engine. WD-40 is flammable, use caution.

That's about all i can think of at this time. I must say, this is a challenging but interesting problem.

Cheers!

If your starter is making a "whirring" noise instead of (or between) cranking, that's the typical sound of a bad sprag/one-way clutch. It works on friction, and the cold overnight temps caused enough contraction in all the parts to reduce contact between the starter gear, the crank gear, and the sprag. Similar to how you can freeze a bearing overnight and then just drop it into place instead of pressing it in.

Here are two videos of my 998 where the bike sometimes cranks and sometimes doesn't:





If you plan on doing the job yourself, this is how you separate the flywheel from the sprag flange if you don't have a press:

Forgot to mention, since you said the shop "inspected" the sprag and thought it was OK, ask them what exactly they did. If all they did was remove the cover and try spinning the flywheel back and fortyh, that's useless. They need to actually disassemble the sprag from the flywheel to check the sprag spring, and for wear marks on the sprag lobes, flywheel/sprag flange, and starter gear. In any case, unless you can confirm there is no wear on the flange and gear surfaces, change them with the sprag.