Throttle problem/Surging

HyperPhil · May 26, 2015

Hi all, i've recently got my first Ducati, an ex demo '14 plate Hyperstrada .

I've been enjoying the bike for the 3 weeks that i've had it, taking my first ever continental trip to the French Pyrenees and i've covered 2000 miles since picking the bike up (bike now has 3000 miles on it.)

It's testament to the comfort of the bike that i did the south to north of France in 9 hours with 4 fuel stops in 560 miles. For someone who always struggled to do more that 100 miles on any sort of bike it's been a revelation.

The only negative i can find is that when i roll off the throttle slightly or shut it the bike surges like its getting bouts of engine braking and its got to the point where its disconcerting. It seems the bike either wants to be on the throttle accelerating or braking with clutch in.

After reading various threads about this type of engine surging i took it to a local Ducati dealer and asked them to check its on the latest fuel map which they said it was. They also said they "tinkered" with the throttle cable by the throttle (as if i didnt know it was throttle by wire and it could be a sticking cable! ). As i didnt buy the bike there im not sure they gave it their utmost attention and it certainly didnt have a test ride by the mechanic that i could see.

The dealer i bought it from is some distance away so getting back there is not an easy short term option.

Is there any way i can check via the dash that i really am on the latest fuel map and if not, is this sort of engine behaviour something you recognise and live with? Also, how much free play do you have in the throttle? Mine has a couple of mm i would guess but it seems to be normal form bikes ive seen in the showroom.

Cheers

ferdi · May 26, 2015

Phil,

unfortunatly this behavoiur is caused by the very lean (lambda 1) AFR at low revs in closed loop. I am also very sensible on this and have seen what disabling of lambda regulation can do on my formaer MG Stelvio. It was nearly a new bike with a very smooth running engine. before that it showed the same symtpoms you described and also my HS has.
Especially V2 engines are very sensible on lean AFR. 4cylinder screamers can handle lean situations better, but even they run much better with rich AFR mixture.

Yesterday i ordered a Rexxer "EVO" user and will get it soon.
First i will get a file with Lambda sensors still active but exhaust valve not active any more.
at time they have a HS at the company and are creating maps without O2 sensors active. As soon as they have them i will get them. at time i could have a testmap but will wait for their production map without O2sensors active.

on former Ducatis with older Marelli ECUs it was possible to switch off Lambda with JPs DucatiDiag, which was very popular. I first used this also on my MG with IAW5 ECU, later i used MG Diag from a german MG forummember. unfortunatly this is not available for Marelli IAW7SM ECU.

HyperPhil · May 26, 2015

Thanks Ferdi, i look forward to seeing how you get on with your modifications. From what you say every HS with the same (latest) fuel mapping should be suffering from the same problem though.

In the meantime i will have to ride around the problem i suppose. It would just be comforting to see with my own eyes that i have the latest software as some people on this forum seem to believe it made an improvement.

My previous bike was a Guzzi Norge that had no unofficial lambda modifications and was still quite smooth on deceleration /closed thottle. There was certainly no stop/go surging feeling with that bike in those circumstances. Fortunately the HS more than makes up for this one deficiency by excelling in so many other areas.

Canto · May 26, 2015

What mode a you riding in?
I find the touring mode less 'sensitive' in your regard than the sport mode but then again it's also less fun riding the bike (at least for me).

treeper · May 26, 2015

have been happening to me too. switching drive modes sometimes helps.
I know I have some gears and revs on Touring that give the problem. Changing gear is the easiest possibility I think.

ferdi · May 26, 2015

not all bikes are the same and not every driver feels the same.
in guzziforum some had surging, some not. i have no idea if the bikes did'nt have it or only the driver did'nt feel it.
but i know that i am very sensitive on that.
it's not so that i cannot drive with the bike as it is, but as i know how much better it can be, i want it that better.

was your norge a 4V or a 2V ? 2V should be better, not so much surging.

gatdammit · May 26, 2015

Stay tuned for my Rapidbike Evo install. It works closed loop and has an auto AFR/tune feature. I can basically install and never have to mess with uploading new maps. Hopefully have it done this weekend.

appliance821 · May 26, 2015

There may be something going on, but the bike is big high compression twin with a light flywheel. The engine braking is strong. If you have the revs up it is sensitive to the throttle - precision is the name of the game. If you're taking it easy, shift up and the engine braking will be more moderate.

You will adjust - when i first got I had a few spazz moments and it bucked like bronco - it's a funny bike that way - but smoothness is rewarded.

Regarding downshifting with the clutch in: you have a slipper - bang down and hear all the nice noises. Make that engine braking work for you -it feels good.

HyperPhil · May 26, 2015

Ferdi, my Norge was a 13 MY 4V. It used to pop a lot on decel but i never had the same sort of surging problem, if i did then i wouldn't be noticing this so much on the HS i think. Of course the Norge is a bigger, lazier engine and wasn't ridden in the same style so that may be part of it.

Will be interesting to see how you and gatdammit get on with your mods.

Canto and Treeper, i ride mainly in touring mode. Interestingly , when i took the bike to the dealer for the tune check, they gave it back to me in sport mode and said try that. Almost like they thought it would smooth it out somehow. I will spend some more time in sport mode and see how that goes too.

BlueSwede · May 27, 2015

Hi Phil, I have some cases of a similar experience. When coming off the throttle, especially when cutting it from WOT to a medium position, it struggles for a fraction of time to interpret my command and surges very briefly. It's a very, very quick revving motor, which I love, but that also makes it a bit more touchy than a lot of twins with more flywheel and less instant power. I agree with Appliance821 that smoothness in the throttle hand is definitely rewarded. By the way, I prefer Sport mode at all times.

If you have bigger and more persistent problems with the surging, etc., then I would wonder if your throttle position sensor is working quite perfectly. Some have had to have them replaced or recalibrated.

gatdammit · May 27, 2015

A popular Motard site blames the significant engine braking partly on the butterfly. Makes sense if it's actuation is tied to the throttle position, and not rpm. Regardless, removing or disabling the butterfly is said to help.

I tend to like heavy engine brake. Saves wear on the pads and I just prefer to wind down to a stop and be ready to twist-n-go vice pulling the clutch and coasting. Seriously, banging down through the gears is intoxicating on this bike!

HyperPhil · May 27, 2015

I dont mind engine braking as long as its consistent. The thing can really buck about though, like im jerking the throttle around which i know im not., im just rolling it off.
It's one of the reasons i asked about free play in the grip and no one has commented on that.

Ive got a couple more days riding coming up so i'll try playing around using the slipper clutch more

gatdammit · May 27, 2015

I think it may be combo of throttle sensitivity and hand control. The TPS is very sensitive in Sport/HI. And I guarantee your hand control will improve as the miles click on. I rarely leave Sport now and can ride as smooth as Urban/LOW.

I only suggest this because mine is a '13 and doesn't do this. I may hear a little puff/back-pressure kick when closing the throttle abruptly, but certainly never translates through the driveline.

appliance821 · May 27, 2015

HyperPhil said:
I dont mind engine braking as long as its consistent. The thing can really buck about though, like im jerking the throttle around which i know im not., im just rolling it off.
It's one of the reasons i asked about free play in the grip and no one has commented on that.

Ive got a couple more days riding coming up so i'll try playing around using the slipper clutch more

Give it a little time - you'll get the rhythm. The good thing is you're enjoying the machine while figuring it out.

BlueSwede · May 27, 2015

Phil, I agree with your comment that there are a couple mm of free play in the throttle.

ferdi · May 27, 2015

appliance821 said:
Give it a little time - you'll get the rhythm. The good thing is you're enjoying the machine while figuring it out.

do you guys all not have surging at lower revs and lower speeds, e.g. when going constant speeds in citytraffic ?

BlueSwede · May 27, 2015

Nope, not with mine. It is civilized and steady at low speed. I only have surging if I whack it WFO, and then chop it back quickly, which I can understand/accept, because I am kind of giving the motor mixed signals...

bigfoot · May 27, 2015

I disconnected the cable on my exhaust butterfly two days ago and although I didn't do it to solve surging it has made a huge difference.

Two minute mod so worth a try. Under the centre stand on the exhaust there's a small cover with two 10mm AF screws holding it on. Take these off and rotate the butterfly valve clockwise against its spring to loosen the tension on the end of the bike brake type cable and just disconnect the nipple. Put the cover back and you're done. No errors on the the ECU as it can't detect what you've done and its only there for emissions control and noise at lower revs.

appliance821 · May 27, 2015

ferdi said:
do you guys all not have surging at lower revs and lower speeds, e.g. when going constant speeds in citytraffic ?

It seems fine - not Honda fine but Ducati fine. no problems. I'll say it again - it's a machine that responds well to precise decisive inputs. If your wrist is twitching, the bike is twitching.

appliance821 · May 27, 2015

bigfoot said:
I disconnected the cable on my exhaust butterfly two days ago and although I didn't do it to solve surging it has made a huge difference.

Two minute mod so worth a try. Under the centre stand on the exhaust there's a small cover with two 10mm AF screws holding it on. Take these off and rotate the butterfly valve clockwise against its spring to loosen the tension on the end of the bike brake type cable and just disconnect the nipple. Put the cover back and you're done. No errors on the the ECU as it can't detect what you've done and its only there for emissions control and noise at lower revs.

2 things I like are emissions control and lower noise when I'm just hanging around.

I've got to say that the more I ride this bike, and the better rider I become, the better the bike is.

I just finished an 800 mile backroad trip, and apart from dumping it in the mud - because I suck going up rocky muddy dirt road mountain sides - it performed wonderfully. The stock suspension seems fine, the power delivery seems fine - it's a very very good bike.

It does ask something from you though : I've gone through stages of frustration - as it's only my third riding season - but I learned to work with it and I've been rewarded.

Throttle problem/Surging

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