Throttle problem/Surging

ferdi · Jun 3, 2015

bicyclemarkm said:
Keep it above 4000 and shell be happier
That said, I'm often down around 2000 in 1st or 2nd gear. I do get a bit of surging, but nothing if find intolerable.

thats right.

in my case i usually entering a village or town, where we have 50 km/h limits, i gear down into 4th and drive with 60-70 km/h and low revs thru the village.
unfortunatly this is exactly the range between 3000-4000 where surging occurs.
Gearing down into 3rd helps a little, but because of the extrem responsivness of the throttle it really does not help too much. it's simply a little more stressfull to drive than without that behaviour.

GR8 · Jun 6, 2015

So I wanted to chime in again on this because I have been riding the bike more and noticed that this happens when I don't fully engage a shift. That is when I blip the peddle up and it doesn't click in all the way. Make sure you are giving her good shifts and you hear/feel the click.

ferdi · Jun 7, 2015

GR8 said:
So I wanted to chime in again on this because I have been riding the bike more and noticed that this happens when I don't fully engage a shift. That is when I blip the peddle up and it doesn't click in all the way. Make sure you are giving her good shifts and you hear/feel the click.

haha, do you think that people complaining surging are not able to shift right, after 40 years of motorbiking

.

by the way - have Rexxer Tuning now, bought a Rexxer EVO User and they sent me some files they have for testing, even I personally only want a file for original setup without stock airfilter and exhaust, 1 file with lambda and with exhaust valve disabled and 1 file with lambda disabled but exhaust valve still enabled.

tried different files
- with lambda enabled and exhaustvalve disabled - no real difference to stock, just louder in the range between 2000-4000 rpm.

- with lambda and exhaustvalve disabled for sport exhausts - was not satisfied with it, still felt surging in the sensible region

- with lambda and exhaustvalve disabled for a termignoni exhaust (even i have stock) - the file satsifies me, surging between 3000-4000 with low load is gone. the only complain i have now that idle is not stable and its sawing between 1000 -1400. when stopping you always mean it will stall every moment, even it does not. but it's not nice. when it idles longer, about 30 seconds or longer, it gets more stable and normal idling.

strange thing - fuel use is less than stock, even injection should be richer than with stock lambda regulation.
basically from my experience i would expect it with a little more fuel use than stock.

Rexxer promised me to send me files for my stock configuration. I am excited how these will work.

what i can tell from now - disabling lambda helps a lot against the surging.

but, everyone must decide by himself and some people do not suffer on the surging and bikes also are not equal, some bikes have more surging, some less.
may also depend on exact synchronization ?
but i suppose its not the synch, if its gone with disabling O2 sensors.

Bilen · Jun 10, 2015

ferdi said:
haha, do you think that people complaining surging are not able to shift right, after 40 years of motorbiking .

by the way - have Rexxer Tuning now, bought a Rexxer EVO User and they sent me some files they have for testing, even I personally only want a file for original setup without stock airfilter and exhaust, 1 file with lambda and with exhaust valve disabled and 1 file with lambda disabled but exhaust valve still enabled.

tried different files
- with lambda enabled and exhaustvalve disabled - no real difference to stock, just louder in the range between 2000-4000 rpm.

- with lambda and exhaustvalve disabled for sport exhausts - was not satisfied with it, still felt surging in the sensible region

- with lambda and exhaustvalve disabled for a termignoni exhaust (even i have stock) - the file satsifies me, surging between 3000-4000 with low load is gone. the only complain i have now that idle is not stable and its sawing between 1000 -1400. when stopping you always mean it will stall every moment, even it does not. but it's not nice. when it idles longer, about 30 seconds or longer, it gets more stable and normal idling.

strange thing - fuel use is less than stock, even injection should be richer than with stock lambda regulation.
basically from my experience i would expect it with a little more fuel use than stock.

Rexxer promised me to send me files for my stock configuration. I am excited how these will work.

what i can tell from now - disabling lambda helps a lot against the surging.

but, everyone must decide by himself and some people do not suffer on the surging and bikes also are not equal, some bikes have more surging, some less.
may also depend on exact synchronization ?
but i suppose its not the synch, if its gone with disabling O2 sensors.

Sounds like you are on the right track here. i have serious surging, and really need it solved.

Bilen · Jun 17, 2015

Getting a new ecu from Ducati next week hopefully it will solve my problems, hopefully it's with open loop all the way.

ferdi · Jun 17, 2015

Bilen said:
Getting a new ecu from Ducati next week hopefully it will solve my problems, hopefully it's with open loop all the way.

why shoudl it have open loop only ? do you have no restrictions in your country that it would not use O2 sensor regulation ?

Bilen · Jun 20, 2015

ferdi said:
why shoudl it have open loop only ? do you have no restrictions in your country that it would not use O2 sensor regulation ?

No we have not.

astrocortex · Mar 5, 2016

So how did everyone's results come out? I just took my first ride and the light switch effect is really strong on mine. On my Z1000 I solved the exact same problem using 2 things - power commander and a throttle tamer. Not sure a fly by wire can use a throttle tamer cuz there is no cables.

Anyway, I'd love to get the ecu tuned if anyone knows a good place. Dynojets website has no PC for the hypers. Was just there.

This lambda stuff I just read is way over my head, but I'll google that up and see if I can do something in the meantime.

appliance821 · Mar 5, 2016

ferdi said:
do you guys all not have surging at lower revs and lower speeds, e.g. when going constant speeds in citytraffic ?

Not saying some people might not have a problem, but it was jerky when I first rode it and now it's smooth if I want it to be.

The bike really likes decisive precise inputs, otherwise it will let you know. I've also found that it's sensitive to chain adjustment - to loose and it feels jerky.

I also found that at about 6000miles the engine seemed to l loosened up and the bike seemed all around smoother. Part of that may also be me getting more in tune with the machine; being in the right gear and keeping that wrist steady..

ferdi · Mar 6, 2016

appliance821 said:
Not saying some people might not have a problem, but it was jerky when I first rode it and now it's smooth if I want it to be.

The bike really likes decisive precise inputs, otherwise it will let you know. I've also found that it's sensitive to chain adjustment - to loose and it feels jerky.

I also found that at about 6000miles the engine seemed to l loosened up and the bike seemed all around smoother. Part of that may also be me getting more in tune with the machine; being in the right gear and keeping that wrist steady..

i did not mean that the driver surges, i really meant the surging of the engine.
if you do not feel it or your engine does not have it, lucky man. this does not mean that others do'nt have it.

surging of my hs went away with rexxer tuning and disabling o2 regulation. this has really nothing to do with throttle behaviour and getting used to it. maybe a beginner or an unexperienced driver can generate surging also, but thats not meant with surging in this thread.
surging because of too lean air/fuel ratio is not new and not restricted to our hs or to ducatis. many bikes suffer from that, one more one less, depending on the efforts the vendor invested.
basically - the less cylinder and the leaner the mixture - the more surging.
early injected bmws suffered a lot, modern bmws do not.
you can read in many forums of many brands all over the world - surging is still a problem with lean engines.
i doubt that all these guys are not able to throttle right.

BlueSwede · Mar 6, 2016

Definitely, Ferdi. It is seriously lean, and can benefit from a slightly richer mixture to reduce or eliminate surging, and less exhaust pop on decel, not to mention running a little bit cooler. It probably would increase engine life. Of course, it pollutes a bit more that way, which is why it's so lean from the factory. I don't have a serious issue with surging on mine, but will probably get my Duc shop to tweak the tuning when it's in for another service. I would not want to loose the O2 feedback loop, though. Seems to me it's nice to still have that for elevation changes, etc. I also agree with Appliance that it takes some getting used to the touchy throttle. But, I like it and use sport mode practically all the time....

astrocortex · Mar 6, 2016

All I know is I have a lifetime of motorcycle experience and I can barely take off from a red light without a problem. Then as I get going, especially around 4K, it's like the bike loses fuel or air momentarily every second or two. And to make it even more awesome, this bike does the light switch with throttle on/off like none I have ever seen. Going, engine braking, going, engine braking. It's just too abrupt. So today I spent the afternoon riding a gear down and it changed nothing. Even cruising at 5k and up it still has all the same problems.

Hopefully I can figure out how to find a happy place in between somewhere. Weirdest thing is on mine sport mode is the easiest off the line. Urban is great for just tooling around town and touring seems to be the least stable of the 3. It's my first Ducati and I've never ever had a clutch as light as this one, so im sure there is some user aspect to this. But mostly it's the bike. Between having the wrong fuel air mix, the light switch of a throttle and the feather clutch... Funny part is I freakin love the bike. I just wish it wasn't so glitchy.

appliance821 · Mar 6, 2016

BlueSwede, file this under "too much internet".

The engines are designed to run lean and with water/oil cooling they can be designed to specific parameters. I don't think they run hot.

But, if they run too rich there's a risk of having fuel wash the cylinder. The cylinder is coated with a very thin hard material like nikasil that depends on thorough lubing to protect itself. Too rich a mixture will cause the oil to be diluted and the liner to be scoured.

ferdi · Mar 7, 2016

appliance821 said:
BlueSwede, file this under "too much internet".

The engines are designed to run lean and with water/oil cooling they can be designed to specific parameters. I don't think they run hot.

But, if they run too rich there's a risk of having fuel wash the cylinder. The cylinder is coated with a very thin hard material like nikasil that depends on thorough lubing to protect itself. Too rich a mixture will cause the oil to be diluted and the liner to be scoured.

so you think the oil is washed from the cylinder also in open loop, when its richer by default ?
or does this washing only exist with richer afr in former closed loop region ?

do you know at which AFR ratios washing occurs ? this is far under AFR 0.8.
you will never come into these regions by just disabling closed loop.

BlueSwede · Mar 7, 2016

Astrocortex, I think you may have some other problem. What you report does not sound normal to me. It might not hurt to have a good Duc shop take a look/test ride to see if they can find a cure.

Appliance, ehh, no, more like not enough internet

..... my point is that I don't really know enough about fuel injection and air/fuel ratios to want to try and tweak it myself. I am following my service departments recommendations. All they do is work on Ducati and so understand this engine much better than I do...

appliance821 · Mar 7, 2016

ferdi said:
so you think the oil is washed from the cylinder also in open loop, when its richer by default ?
or does this washing only exist with richer afr in former closed loop region ?

do you know at which AFR ratios washing occurs ? this is far under AFR 0.8.
you will never come into these regions by just disabling closed loop.

dunno

willmac · Mar 7, 2016

I have the surging issue.
Trying to keep on steady throttle is impossible. No matter what RPM, no matter how steady your hand the bike surges and also backing off the throttle is abrupt.

Funny thing is that I initially installed a SC Project- CRT can. The bike was immediately cured. It was steady and easy to ride ( I did not re-map ) . However, the downside - just too noisy. Bike appeared to be running very lean. The overrun noise was unbelievable but just too much for me and the cops !
Went back to original exhaust for a while - surging back again. Then when my Akra exhaust arrived fitted that - surging still there.

Although my bike is a 2014 model I have had new throttle installed , and surging still occurs.

My friends Hypermotard 821, 2013 model in standard form, also surges, actually even worse than mine. He is a very experienced rider, and he seems to live with it ok. As he states, these bikes were designed for ragging the *** off them. Not for pootling around.

So the only conclusion there can be is that the original mapping on these bikes is really poor. It is too common a problem to blame user error for those pointing in that direction. You can use all the finesse you want on that throttle, it ain't going to help.

I love my bike, however the shine is tarnished when it's just not quite perfect. Would love to have it cured

WiLZy · Mar 8, 2016

willmac said:
I have the surging issue.
Trying to keep on steady throttle is impossible. No matter what RPM, no matter how steady your hand the bike surges and also backing off the throttle is abrupt.

Funny thing is that I initially installed a SC Project- CRT can. The bike was immediately cured. It was steady and easy to ride ( I did not re-map ) . However, the downside - just too noisy. Bike appeared to be running very lean. The overrun noise was unbelievable but just too much for me and the cops !
Went back to original exhaust for a while - surging back again. Then when my Akra exhaust arrived fitted that - surging still there.

Although my bike is a 2014 model I have had new throttle installed , and surging still occurs.

My friends Hypermotard 821, 2013 model in standard form, also surges, actually even worse than mine. He is a very experienced rider, and he seems to live with it ok. As he states, these bikes were designed for ragging the *** off them. Not for pootling around.

So the only conclusion there can be is that the original mapping on these bikes is really poor. It is too common a problem to blame user error for those pointing in that direction. You can use all the finesse you want on that throttle, it ain't going to help.

I love my bike, however the shine is tarnished when it's just not quite perfect. Would love to have it cured

Hey I was about telling something similar, but in my case with a EU homologated SC-Project "Oval Low", the bike is much smoother in low rpm or "few gas".

kuksul08 · Mar 8, 2016

I've been a lot happier with my bike ever since I installed the RapidBike evo unit. It's not perfect, but it's a helluva lot better than it was before. Worth a shot if you're hating the way it rides.

rss29 · Mar 8, 2016

kuksul08 said:
I've been a lot happier with my bike ever since I installed the RapidBike evo unit. It's not perfect, but it's a helluva lot better than it was before. Worth a shot if you're hating the way it rides.

You've probably posted about this in the past, but I'd like to hear more about this option. How much? Is it user installable/configurable? Do you get to keep the existing modes (sport/touring/urban)?

Apologies if all this was discussed previously- I haven't searched through old threads.

Throttle problem/Surging

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