Adventures in Hypermotard Tuning...

MartyGarrison · Nov 22, 2017

A remap comes with the full termi system as well as a air box mod of some sort. Yes, stupid expensive (3k installed) but boy what a difference. No more of the snatchy throttle in the low rpms and also a definite kick to the overall power.

I honestly don't have time to mess around with performance mods on the bike and this was just a lazy mans solution. I love it.

ripyowrist · Nov 22, 2017

Ok please forgive my ignorance. I am in need of instruction and guidance, dear friends. You cannot insult me so feel free to speak as plainly or obviously as possible, haha!

So my motorcycle, 2013 Hypermotard, has a full termignoni system. *I believe* it has the appropriate termi flash on the ecu because it says "Ducati Race" when I turn it on. That being said, the throttle response is very choppy/nonlinear. I have experienced the same on/off throttle many of you have described in other threads. This is especially prevalent when attempting fine throttle inputs for accel/decal in a turn. So you guys are saying that with the appropriate termi map it shouldn't be having this problem? Or is that only after a tune from some dyno tester?

I bought the bike used from a guy who knew almost nothing about it. It has about 6k miles on the clock. I don't know what all the termi package included, but I can confirm that it has the full pipe not just the slip on. Is there something I need to inspect or see if it is missing? What is you guidance? I know virtually no history on the bike other than the time I've had it. All this being said, I don't have a particular dealer that I go to with services and that sort of stuff (as I bought used). I suppose they would be necessary in determining if it's missing any critical recalls/replacement parts?

Thanks for the help!

dragoontwo · Nov 22, 2017

ripyowrist said:
Ok please forgive my ignorance. I am in need of instruction and guidance, dear friends. You cannot insult me so feel free to speak as plainly or obviously as possible, haha!

So my motorcycle, 2013 Hypermotard, has a full termignoni system. *I believe* it has the appropriate termi flash on the ecu because it says "Ducati Race" when I turn it on. That being said, the throttle response is very choppy/nonlinear. I have experienced the same on/off throttle many of you have described in other threads. This is especially prevalent when attempting fine throttle inputs for accel/decal in a turn. So you guys are saying that with the appropriate termi map it shouldn't be having this problem? Or is that only after a tune from some dyno tester?

I bought the bike used from a guy who knew almost nothing about it. It has about 6k miles on the clock. I don't know what all the termi package included, but I can confirm that it has the full pipe not just the slip on. Is there something I need to inspect or see if it is missing? What is you guidance? I know virtually no history on the bike other than the time I've had it. All this being said, I don't have a particular dealer that I go to with services and that sort of stuff (as I bought used). I suppose they would be necessary in determining if it's missing any critical recalls/replacement parts?

Thanks for the help!

Out of curiosity, what bike did you come from to this one?

ripyowrist · Nov 22, 2017

Kawasaki ZX6R, ZX10R, and a 2013 WR450F

Are you going to say I'm just not used to the throttle response? I've heard that's a real problem for hyper-n00bs. The ninja's are insanely smooth. This is my first ride-by-wire and it seems like I have no control on the throttle.

Or that I have no control over the bike. When I roll on its like nothing nothing, then it falls off a cliff and jerks. It seems like that every time I change throttle position, extremely abrupt.

dragoontwo · Nov 22, 2017

ripyowrist said:
Kawasaki ZX6R, ZX10R, and a 2013 WR450F

Are you going to say I'm just not used to the throttle response? I've heard that's a real problem for hyper-n00bs. The ninja's are insanely smooth. This is my first ride-by-wire and it seems like I have no control on the throttle.

Or that I have no control over the bike. When I roll on its like nothing nothing, then it falls off a cliff and jerks. It seems like that every time I change throttle position, extremely abrupt.

It is what I was going to suggest. The torque curve is different than the Kawis.

Without watching you, I can't really give any specific advice. You ever ride up anywhere close to the Nashville area?

No remap, or aftermarket fueling will change the throttle response unless it changes the mapping of the throttle unit.

ripyowrist · Nov 22, 2017

Hmm, maybe I just need more seat time. Just seems like a lag between input and response, then an abrupt jerk, hard to roll on smoothly.

I actually live in Huntsville. So not too far from Nashville but I've never ridden a bike up that way before.

kuksul08 · Nov 22, 2017

Here are a few things to think about. The Hyper engine has some characteristics that will make it behave differently than other bikes. It is a pretty high compression twin with very little rotating mass. There is a light flywheel, small diameter clutch assembly, no counterbalancer mechanism, and belt driven valves. These combine to make a very snappy, responsive engine, but takes away some of the smoothness you can expect from a more docile engine.

Then you have the throttle, completely electronic with a light return spring and pretty aggressive throttle curves (except for wet mode, but who the heck rides in wet mode?). The engine has a single set of injectors, and no secondary throttle bodies or idle circuit, so it leaves the entire low speed throttle up to very fine movements in the throttle plate. Based on my testing, most riding occurs around 2-5% throttle plate opening! That means it's just barely cracked open when you're cruising along. This engine is also tuned for high RPMs, as is very obvious by the enormous exhaust diameter. So you're going to have major tradeoffs at low RPMs and low throttle openings. On the plus side, it's really a screamer up top.

Tuning the engine fuel ratios completely changed the behavior of the engine while accelerating - it's as if there is a nice cushion on every piston stroke, and there is no longer an abrupt transition in the 6000RPM range. However, if you are riding in an area where the throttle is just cracked and you're bouncing between that acceleration-deceleration area, no amount of tuning is going to fix that. It's also funny - when overlaying my test video with the data logs, I could see every bump in the road in my throttle input. Combine that with a sensitive throttle that transitions aggressively from acceleration to deceleration, it's going to be another factor.

My suggestion is when you ride this bike, make very deliberate throttle movements. When you want to accelerate, roll on smoothly and a good amount. When you want to brake, let off completely. Don't hover in in the cracked throttle position and expect it to putt along very smoothly.

Just for reference, my S1000XR has an electronic throttle and runs pretty lean, but is completely smooth in stock form. Four cylinders will be inherently smoother, but BMW also did a much better job at tuning the small throttle openings so it ramps up smoothly and doesn't cut fuel aggressively when you close the throttle. An all around more refined riding experience. Not nearly as fun as the Hyper though!

ripyowrist · Nov 22, 2017

kuksul08 what you say makes good sense. Definitely a big difference between two big bore cylinders and four small ones. It seems like riding a bull with a feather for a riding crop. Very light inputs and MASSIVE outputs from the engine in response. I've had concerns in certain situations, like that I'm somehow going to spin the rear wheel mid-turn making a slow-speed maneuver when I'm simply trying to apply a little throttle to accelerate out of the turn. While still leaned, I'm wary of skidding in the turn because a roll of the throttle seems like a big jerk on the bike.

Do I just flog it all the time and accept the sharp changes? Or do you guys just get better at anticipating that the bike is going to buck and ride around it?

Thanks for all the advice and replies. You guys are so awesome

dragoontwo · Nov 22, 2017

ripyowrist said:
Hmm, maybe I just need more seat time. Just seems like a lag between input and response, then an abrupt jerk, hard to roll on smoothly.

I actually live in Huntsville. So not too far from Nashville but I've never ridden a bike up that way before.

I'm not too familiar with roads south of Nashville, but if there's any interesting roads between Huntsville and there, I could do some riding with you and see if there's anything I can help out with.

appliance821 · Nov 22, 2017

ripyowrist said:
kuksul08 what you say makes good sense. Definitely a big difference between two big bore cylinders and four small ones. It seems like riding a bull with a feather for a riding crop. Very light inputs and MASSIVE outputs from the engine in response. I've had concerns in certain situations, like that I'm somehow going to spin the rear wheel mid-turn making a slow-speed maneuver when I'm simply trying to apply a little throttle to accelerate out of the turn. While still leaned, I'm wary of skidding in the turn because a roll of the throttle seems like a big jerk on the bike.

Do I just flog it all the time and accept the sharp changes? Or do you guys just get better at anticipating that the bike is going to buck and ride around it?

Thanks for all the advice and replies. You guys are so awesome

I think some patience - it likes precise inputs for reasons noted above. In a month or two it will be second nature as you get a handle on gear selection, engine response and just begin to trust the machine. It will start to flow. If you are uncomfortable, try using urban mode for a while (or whatever they call it on the SP) - you'll have more TC and earlier ABS.

Oddly, I find sport mode to be smoother than touring, especially once out of town, because of the more direct relationship between throttle and response. You can still dial in more TC if it's a concern.

One thing to note: The bike is sensitive to chain adjustment. On a side stand, the chain should be close to, but not touching the swing arm when you pull it up to the adjustment mark. If it's loose it will have a lot of jerky driveline lash.

If it makes you feel better, I've never had the bike step out on me and I've ridden all weather (well not snow but...) and all roads. I started with less experience than you. I came from a Honda - so I was used to smooth - the duc was a wake up call, but I owned it and that was that. I love the damned thing at this point (27,000 miles) and it might have made me a better rider (The jury's out on that though

)- certainly my wrist is a precision device.

Devinjc · Dec 14, 2017

This post is money:

kuksul08 said:
Sure. No guarantee it will produce great results since our bikes are going to be different but you can give it a shot. You might want to wait until I verify all the trims with another data log in the coming week.

***First things first. Take some screen shots of your current settings, current map, and current Auto Adaptivity trims before changing any of this. Also do the "Backup" just in case. That way you can go back at any time to your original setup. I'd also be interested what map and auto adaptivity trims you're currently running, so post them up if you can!

1. Plug in your computer to the RB module, open the Rapidbike Master software, and click the connect button. It may ask you to download updates, update firmware, etc. I usually do all that first.

2. Go to the Auto Adaptivity tab and press the DISABLE button on bottom right. Then Apply if it's possible. Leave the RB02 Active checked... this keeps fooling the bike's ECU that the O2 sensors are working properly.

3. Go to the RB Features tab and go to Map Configuration. Change it to 35x9. Go the rows/columns. Leave the RPM limits the same at 1300, 9700. Change the TPS columns to 0, 2, 5, 10, 20, 40, 60, 80, 95. Apply these changes. I had to close the program and re-open and re-connect to get it to show the new configuration.

4. You should have Cyl 1 and Cyl 2 maps all 0's. See if you can open this map and then press Send Map.
Map:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/7smsqklyzgr6ost/ZT2 Tune v170310.mpp?dl=0

Should look like this:

Devinjc · Dec 14, 2017

back to the tuning part of our show:

I put the EVO on along with the termi intake and the MWR power up kit...

And I was not happy. Engine character was gone, it was smoother sure, but... boring. How did I do all this only to arrive at boring?

Changed the oil after about 200 miles or so. Oil was really overdue and that plus maybe the auto-adapt was finally getting the fueling figured out made for much improvement. Still some fueling issues though, especially from 5500 to 7k.

Then I loaded Kuksul08's map. I managed to get 1.4 miles in on that map as a quick test run and ... this is real early... so... let's not get carried away... but

Holy **** this thing is awesome.

If all goes as planned, I should get in a much longer test ride tomorrow and if it doesn't explode from the massive fuel increase I'll report back.

ripyowrist · Dec 15, 2017

Devinjc that's awesome man. I'm glad somebody is using some of kuksul's research. As far as I'm concerned the man is a veritable wizard. Based on the advice in this thread I've held off on getting a RB unit. I did manage a ride the other day though (I'm fair weather haha) and am learning the bike throttle control a little better. I put it back in race/sport and didn't notice that it was any more violent only more responsive to my inputs. Plus I think the new clutch predictability has helped my confidence/control tremendously.

But I'm glad to hear you're getting things sorted out with the RB. These bikes have ridiculous potential to be unabashedly awesome. Looking forward to hearing how the kukusul kustom map treats you boss!

Devinjc · Dec 15, 2017

50 miles today.

Running every gear through from the lowest RPM it will handle to redline-ish and I cannot find any consistent problems and nothing to complain about. It pulls just as hard as it can all the way through every gear.

I think the best part is that now it's both a complete hooligan bike and a really chill commuter, it just depends on your throttle hand.

I did a 1/4 mile in first doing 15mph, not 10-20, 15.

I did a mile in 2nd at 20mph with no surging.

3rd gear is butter from 30-80.

And 6th pulls from 80 to 100 like it's in 5th.

I will say it doesn't feel as torquey, but that could easily be that my butt needs recalibrating.

I am getting a little bit of pop on decel into first, but I also noticed that the change in fueling has me a bit aggressive on the downshifts as it was locking up a bit...

Have a couple of things to discuss with Kuksul08 about the data the led to this map, but I'm about as pleased as I can be with this whole project.

Devinjc · Dec 15, 2017

Caltrans, pavers feud over road smoothness | The Sacramento Bee

I tell stories about a section of highway the article is referring to. They repaved it while it was part of my commute... and it is as smooth as glass. It is a part of all my tuning runs now because of how transparent it is. 5 lanes wide and if you catch it empty... mmmphm

And there's at least 2 miles of new road nearby built to the same standards, and 5 more that might as well be...

If something vibrates, it's on the bike. If something seems off, it's on the bike.

Gas taxes rule

kuksul08 · Dec 19, 2017

ripyowrist said:
Devinjc that's awesome man. I'm glad somebody is using some of kuksul's research. As far as I'm concerned the man is a veritable wizard. Based on the advice in this thread I've held off on getting a RB unit. I did manage a ride the other day though (I'm fair weather haha) and am learning the bike throttle control a little better. I put it back in race/sport and didn't notice that it was any more violent only more responsive to my inputs. Plus I think the new clutch predictability has helped my confidence/control tremendously.

But I'm glad to hear you're getting things sorted out with the RB. These bikes have ridiculous potential to be unabashedly awesome. Looking forward to hearing how the kukusul kustom map treats you boss!

Lol, I'm a wizard!!!

I just really take the "where there's a will there's a way" philosophy to heart. I was really motivated to figure out the fueling and learn about how it works.

Sadly I think this and the clutch are the last of my Hyper projects as my focus has been drawn elsewhere lately. The bike is pretty much sorted now anyway.

ripyowrist · Dec 20, 2017

hey man I heard that. If it's fixed don't fix it haha. Besides you've got enough other stuff to occupy your time now like fighting to keep the front end of that XR on the ground, and they call it a "touring" bike haha. Comfort for hooligans

Tyjamo · Mar 8, 2018

dragoontwo said:
For those who don't want to fool around with the Rapidbike, Termi has a dedicated UPMAP device for our bikes now. it plugs into the diagnostic port, and you can buy different pre set maps. First one is free apparently.

http://www.up-map.it/en/t800/

I've just discovered this also after perusing the Termignoni website. I haven't seen any discussion about it on this site though. I'm wondering if anybody has actually installed it and what the report is. I get a feeling it's a simplified plug and play system that allows you to change maps, but only to other maps designed by UPMAP ((Termignoni). The RapidBike EVO obviously gives a much higher level of actual tuning versus simply downloading a different map from your smartphone. The maps they have are either for full Termi exhaust, or stock exhaust, varying with airbox mods. There were none for slip on only.

From the info in this thread, it seems the RB must be deliberately tuned, likely via kuksul's map or similar, in order to make it work properly. The auto tune should be a great feature but seems to be more of a gimmick. So what are the results after running kuksuls maps for a few months, guys?

RB can also be used on multiple bikes. This is enticing for me as I'm intending to acquire a Monster 821. Monster 821's by the way are naturally (factory) much more impressive with throttle, power, and general snarl. Has anybody used the RB with add-ons for multiple bikes?

Can the T800 device that is used with the new UPMAP be removed from your bike and used on another, like the old upmap stick from Termi?
With the full Termi system, they claim 5.5 horsepower increase.
With the stock exhaust, they claim 3.3 horsepower increase.

By the way, Kuksul, great job. I follow F1 and MotoGP and these days it's so technical it's light years beyond the laymans understanding. Your posts though give a very understandable and achieveable performance enhancement via the same methods as in the big leagues. As they say, "data, data, data". If I decide to go with RB, I obviously must try your map! What type of engineer are you?

Another wizard, ex Ducati master tech, told me about the Russian maps. That was four years ago but I always remember how mysterious it sounded and I've since fantasized about how insane those maps (or any great maps) are and how they can transform the animal into a real beast. Anyone have any clue about that?

The Hyperstrada is staying. It's the greatest bike I've ever had and I'll hang on to it, so I figure it's worth upgrading now. The 1200's are in my sights for the future but until then I'd really like to see the true potential of the 821.

dragoontwo · Mar 8, 2018

Tyjamo said:
Monster 821's by the way are naturally (factory) much more impressive with throttle, power, and general snarl.

I haven't ridden the Monster 821, but I suspect the better feel comes from having +1 on the rear sprocket compared to the Hyper.

Tyjamo · Mar 8, 2018

dragoontwo said:
I haven't ridden the Monster 821, but I suspect the better feel comes from having +1 on the rear sprocket compared to the Hyper.

I wish it were true as a sprocket mod would be easy. But it was much more than that. Mapping. We also run 95 Octane fuel here.

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